Curse

Shursh · Aug 15, 2008, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Imbagon... ursan (prior nerf)... I'm not sure which is actually more imbalanced.

But seriously, if the key to your non-ursan build is an imbagon, you're not fooling anyone.

I hope they nerf the imbagon to shit. I've seen them more responsible for keeping a team alive than some casters running around with +20 more armor swinging a sword.

i'm not denying it

it is hypocritical to denounce UB while using an imbagon. and agreed, SY! needs a nerf. i simply made an imbagon so i could actively work towards keeping a party alive in the FOW, rather than waste time with incompetent tank n' spanks.

unfortunately, the three PUGS i've been with since rolling an imbagon in FOW have all failed miserably due to party formation looking like a bunch of lost bone minions, and when you aggro the entire shadow army, +100 armor only goes so far.

Jenn · Aug 15, 2008, 09:01 PM // 21:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shursh

i'm not denying it

it is hypocritical to denounce UB while using an imbagon. and agreed, SY! needs a nerf. i simply made an imbagon so i could actively work towards keeping a party alive in the FOW, rather than waste time with incompetent tank n' spanks.

unfortunately, the three PUGS i've been with since rolling an imbagon in FOW have all failed miserably due to party formation looking like a bunch of lost bone minions, and when you aggro the entire shadow army, +100 armor only goes so far.

Hahahaha I laughed IRL at your 2nd paragraph. It's true though, even with any kind of PvE-only skill, your party is not invincible, especially with an imbagon if they're all out of range of shouts.

P.S. I made an imbagon, too

. But I never hated Ursan. It made DoA pugging take less time (which, admittedly, was kinda the only reason I liked ursan).

Snow Bunny · Aug 15, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Imbagon... ursan (prior nerf)... I'm not sure which is actually more imbalanced.

Imbagons - 1 person in the party, can keep a party of 60 AL people alive, extremely well. They can provide other buffs and also do spear-chuckin' damage.

Ursan - needs 5-6 of them for it to be effective, and if agro leaks on monks, they have very little protection and can go squish.

What I don't get is how ursan haters don't feel like hypocrites when they worship the ground an imbagon walks on. Maybe they don't feel that way because it's not abused, and the general idea is that paragons suck. But seriously, if the key to your non-ursan build is an imbagon, you're not fooling anyone.

You should know as well as I that the mitigation an Imbagon provides goes only so far.

The rest of the build has to be able to kill. An Ursan team was better because 6 Ursans had very high armor, KDs up the ass and absurd damage.

The Paragon could protect, albeit magnificently, but consider this - the rate at which Ursan could take down enemy mobs negated a need for the type of protection that Imbagon required.

The imbagon is a serious PvE abuse, I'll give you that. But it still required thought with regards to the rest of the party being successful.

If the rest of the team couldn't put forth damage, over time the party would get overwhelmed.

If Ursans aren't doing damage, then why are you running it.

As easy as it is to rightfully bash Ursan, it is similarly easy to question if the Imbagon wasn't more imbalanced.

Also, in terms of imbaness - Old Ursan elite clear times vs. 'Balanced' clear times showed a severe and marked discrepancy.

the_jos · Aug 15, 2008, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phineas

Maybe a little harsh to assume that all of them don't want to learn, especially those I see begging for the builds in DoA and ToA.

I would put this in slightly different words.
Most players don't want to learn how to most efficiently play their profession, they want to learn how to make the largest amount of cash in the least amount of time while playing with randoms (considering they are not asking for solo builds).
To put it in guild terms, most players want to have the income of a master while not learning the needed skills like an apprentice and being involved with the same group of people to learn from them.
And learning means failing. I rather have one player who fails miserably and understands why and adapts than 10 players who succeed but don't have a clue why they succeeded.

When my guild had it's PvP period there was one simple rule.
Each player was handed a build by the skilled GvG organizer, run it or don't play. Learn how it works, why it works and why it fails. Only when you fully know the build and understand the strength and weakness you are allowed to adjust while discussing the change with the builder and the other team members. Show that you understand how you can improve the build to benefit the entire team.

The players in DoA and ToA are not asking for those kinds of builds.
They most likely want the last FotM, the cookie cutter builds, the instant win builds. They don't want to fail, they will ragequit on failure.

For example, Snow Bunny talked about Melandru Dervishes in FoW earlier in this thread. If I went into FoW with their team as Mel Derv it could turn into massive failure. I know the area and foes very well but am very inexperienced as dervish. Even with the right build I would probably make silly mistakes while playing it. I'm not used to the skills and don't play melee that often.
And I doubt the team build is suited for PUG teams, it probably has a much higher risk of failure compared to tank & spank.

I think that's the bottom line for PUGs.
Let's take a FoW PUG for example. When they play tank & spank the run will take 1.5 hour and the rate of success is 80%.
Now we have an 'advanced' team build that can clear in 1 hour but has a success rate of 40%. For a PUG this means it's better to tank & spank.
However, with practice both the builds can be mastered and played with 100% sucess rate. This will take 5 runs for example.
For a guild team it's not that hard to do 5 runs and learn how to play. So the 1 hour team build would be the preferred build if they decide to do more then 5 runs. On the other hand the average PUG will last 1 run. Meaning you have to start learning and educating over again.

So in the end, the PUG player wants to learn an entirely different build than the guild player.

R.Shayne · Aug 15, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Yesterday was in Lion's Arch, two elementalist were asking for runs to the ToA. I ran them on the condition that they would do something nice for some random person later.

I noticed one was level 14 so asked why they wanted to go to toa. There answer was they wanted to Terra Tank for the speed clears. When I asked if they had ascended none of them knew what I was talking about, had to ask them if they had done Naphue Quarter missions and both responded no. I then had to explain to them that they could not go into FoW or UW until they did that mission.

Most don’t want to spend the time to prepare (equipment, extra attributes, ascend, etc…) they just want to jump into the most profitable area and start making gold. I noticed the same thing with CoF, players show up to start running but they don’t have the right equipment, they don’t have the attribute points, they have not practiced with the build ever before, and they immediately want to start spamming, “Running CoF HM 2k murk (bring heals and LoD”

This type of attitude hurts other people and the sad part there is no way to tell if the person that just joined your pug has done the foot worked needed to be in that area.

Jenn · Aug 15, 2008, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

You should know as well as I that the mitigation an Imbagon provides goes only so far.

The rest of the build has to be able to kill. An Ursan team was better because 6 Ursans had very high armor, KDs up the ass and absurd damage.

The Paragon could protect, albeit magnificently, but consider this - the rate at which Ursan could take down enemy mobs negated a need for the type of protection that Imbagon required.

The imbagon is a serious PvE abuse, I'll give you that. But it still required thought with regards to the rest of the party being successful.

If the rest of the team couldn't put forth damage, over time the party would get overwhelmed.

If Ursans aren't doing damage, then why are you running it.

As easy as it is to rightfully bash Ursan, it is similarly easy to question if the Imbagon wasn't more imbalanced.

Also, in terms of imbaness - Old Ursan elite clear times vs. 'Balanced' clear times showed a severe and marked discrepancy.

Because of ability to zerg in Ursan, it is true that damage mitigation is not as required, and I know that. But whether you are a good team that chooses to run balanced (with an imbagon), or a good/mediocre/bad team tht chooses to run Ursan, it's still kinda cheating either way, isn't it? On top of that, the really bad zerging Ursans can't kill stuff and still fail. Crazy as it might be to say this, but Ursan isn't idiot-proof.

We also both know that Imbagons and Ursans do different things for the party - their role is fundamentally different, which is why I prefer to not compare them other than make the general statement of them being imbalanced. Ursan is damage with some passive defense, and Imbagon is the flip side.

It sounded a little bit like you're saying running balanced (+imba) is a more thoughtful and challenging way of playing, and to some extent I agree. But I don't think it actually encourages better play. When there's an imbagon in the team, I can blissfully stand in a firestorm, unsteady ground, and get beat on with swords/bows/spears/wands, and so can the rest of my team. We will lose approximately 1/4 of our health in the duration of the battle. In Ursan, if I and the other 4-5 ursans did that, we'd have about a 50/50 chance of being dead, depending on who the monks are.

In conclusion, I think I choose to say this:
I believe Ursan and Imbagon are equally imbalanced in their own right, but due to the nature of the prejudice held against paragons, and the lack of understanding of physical damage, they are not seen as much of a threat to the cause of an "unintelligent homogenous PuG environment."

Kashrlyyk · Aug 15, 2008, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

...because this game is not for you.

Maybe the game is not for you and your attitude. Did someone remove your brain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

It is called GUILD WARS! You teats, learn that the whole point of the game was to form these things called GUILDS of people with similar interests, to play together. There is also a Friends' list. Quit being anti-social in-game and develop some friends. Hell, one friend and their heroes will make a nice sweep and clear of any area.

It is called "Guild Wars" because in the ancient time of its lore, there were Guild wars, what is left of those now are the GvG skirmishes. Get your facts as straight as the plank in front of your head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

There are plenty of large guilds, even advertised here, which you can apply to and join. Most will take you, if you aren't a total a$$ hat.

Then how did you get into one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clarissa F

To those who complain that "elite" areas should be available to everyone, I would love, LOVE to see what you do in your life that allows such mediocrity to be satisfying to you. Then again, I guess some people need to push the papers, while others are leading the company.

THIS IS A GAME! You can not make any assumptions on the success of people by their opinion towards certain areas in a game. And yes, I think that "elite" areas, especially in NM, should be available for everyone that finished the campaign, because I am a nice person, that doesn´t get an erection from imaginary loot or an imaginary success in a game. You obviously take this GAME way to serious. I pity you. Don´t bother to answer, you are on ignore now.

Snow Bunny · Aug 15, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

but due to the nature of the prejudice held against paragons, and the lack of understanding of physical damage, they are not seen as much of a threat to the cause of an "unintelligent homogenous PuG environment."

That's the crux of the argument, really.

Balanced teams, in a game sense, are never really overpowered. A team that's experienced and good will run balanced and be able to tackle anything they face.

A gimmick won't be able to cope with everything but will be good enough to beat stale PvE AI and bad players.

A bad pug can't run a balanced team, even with a good imbagon and monk. The good organized guild team will run a balanced team with much better results, and probably better results then the bad pug running the easy gimmick. Now you have a good team running the gimmick, which will produce superior results then if they had run balanced.

Age · Aug 15, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

You your self might want to form your own group in ToA using the party window andcheck up on builds and hp.It would seem to me that todays pugs need a good guild themselves.

AKB48 · Aug 15, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Well guys it's the DoA, Domain of Anguish. What can you expect? Happy Days? Then why did Anet name it DoA? If it's the domain of Anguish, of course people are gonna anguish there, otherwise the place will lose it's meaning.

Golgotha · Aug 16, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

A game designed for team play that incorporates a huge aspect of the game into developing groups (guilds). I'd say being in a guild is rather logical.

It's like saying killing monsters (grouping) is hard with 0 attributes (no guild). You want to play without them, then you have to deal with the loss of benefits.

A guild is a type of group and not the end all be all. A friends list can, and has for quite a few people, work better than any guild. I'd say that negating someone's opinions of PUGs simply because he isn't in a guild is rather illogical.

I don't see anyone from the "Ho Ho, you don't have a guild, loser!" group offering him an invite in to their's. The same old GWG nonsense.

Lopezus · Aug 16, 2008, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

It is called GUILD WARS! You teats, learn that the whole point of the game was to form these things called GUILDS of people with similar interests, to play together. There is also a Friends' list. Quit being anti-social in-game and develop some friends. Hell, one friend and their heroes will make a nice sweep and clear of any area.

There are plenty of large guilds, even advertised here, which you can apply to and join. Most will take you, if you aren't a total a$$ hat.

100% Nonsense.
To go to DoA - completing Nightfall is required.
FoW/UW - Ascension is required.
Nothing about being in guild or even big guild, so if the devs were so into GUILDS they could easily put another rquirement for elite areas - being in big guild, and personally i would be ok with that, simply becasue i would know where i stand. Now because finding a group in elite areas is based on ridiculous concepts answering to this problem with "Find a decent guild" is plain retarded.

Abedeus · Aug 16, 2008, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Myself, I think I mainly bought Guild Wars as a singleplayer RPG that I could play with people as an optional feature, and indeed the game does seem to be designed that way. The people I know ingame I don't really play with them much anymore, just chat with them while playing. (Or in between posts.)

Ding ding ding. Last time I pugged was with a single guy. His builds were decent and he was a W/P with DS spammer. But he totally didn't know how to play in a team... And the pug before that was group of 7 idiots that almost wiped at the beginning of Abaddon's Mouth mission. And before that FoW group, mixed ursans with nukers. And when I say nukers, I mean one E/Mo without attune and A/E nuker using +30/-2 set. One person left after 5 minutes, then we failed. I was monking, but it's hard to monk idiots running away from me on 25% health.

What's worse, all of those pugs were on NM. Can't imagine how would it be on HM...

the_jos · Aug 16, 2008, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

I don't see anyone from the "Ho Ho, you don't have a guild, loser!" group offering him an invite in to their's. The same old GWG nonsense.

There are two kinds of 'guildless' players.
The first are the ones without a guild (tag).
The second are the players who have a guild but their guild does not support a certain type of gameplay.

If you want to be in a certain type of guild search for them.
You can find some of them here on guru while others just recruit ingame.
And some of those do it standing in outposts while others only recruit players they played with.
From what I've experienced one of the more important things to do is being visible (in a positive way). And try to play with others as much as possible even if that means waiting for a team to form for a while.

You mentioned friends lists and I think that's the most valuable tool for any 'guildless' player. And even for players who are in guilds that suit their needs, I sometimes like hanging out with people who I've played with in the past.
Still, you have to get on that list. And stay on it.
Meaning you have to play with me at least once and stand out in that positive way.

Would I invite the 'guildless loser'?
It depends. We have certain 'requirements'. Just to make sure someone fits in the guild and does not feel excluded. And will not be a burden to the rest of us.
But I've made exceptions for players who I think have the right mindset and attitude and the will to improve the parts where they don't meet the requirements.

Red Sonya · Aug 16, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Difference between Guilds and Pugs

Guilds are a GROUP of asshats

Pugs are a random GROUP of asshats

lol not much difference between the two really. Just that guilds look DOWN on pugs.

The real problem in this game and most others is just like in the real world, people get behind religions (guilds) and social classes (elitism) and turn their noses up at any others that aren't a part or don't conform to THEIR society and customs.

Playing in a guild is really no better than playing in a pug, they still fail from time to time even playing with the same people over n over and day after day. I've played in both societies and group types and I've had just as much success in pugs as I've had in the several guilds I tried out. Main thing is you really don't have to join a guild to get in a group of SKILLED players, it's just that the elitism of guild members dictates that ALL puggers suck which they don't and in many cases are actually better players than a lot of guild groups out there.

isamu kurosawa · Aug 16, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Difference between Guilds and Pugs

Guilds are a GROUP of asshats

Pugs are a random GROUP of asshats

lol not much difference between the two really. Just that guilds look DOWN on pugs.

The real problem in this game and most others is just like in the real world, people get behind religions (guilds) and social classes (elitism) and turn their noses up at any others that aren't a part or don't conform to THEIR society and customs.

Playing in a guild is really no better than playing in a pug, they still fail from time to time even playing with the same people over n over and day after day. I've played in both societies and group types and I've had just as much success in pugs as I've had in the several guilds I tried out. Main thing is you really don't have to join a guild to get in a group of SKILLED players, it's just that the elitism of guild members dictates that ALL puggers suck which they don't and in many cases are actually better players than a lot of guild groups out there.

either you have had bad experiences in guilds, made bad choices of what guilds to join or where the one with the the guilds resident "asshat" yourself.

I have been in a total of 3 guilds, all where active, friendly, skilled players. the first disbanded after the leader left, remaining members formed the 2nd guild which was led by myself until members left for uni etc. Now i am in TAM.

It wasn't hard for me to find a new guild that has ideals, playstyles and interests simmilar to my own. I did so within 3 days of deciding to disband my old guild.

zwei2stein · Aug 16, 2008, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Yesterday was in Lion's Arch, two elementalist were asking for runs to the ToA. I ran them on the condition that they would do something nice for some random person later.

I noticed one was level 14 so asked why they wanted to go to toa. There answer was they wanted to Terra Tank for the speed clears. When I asked if they had ascended none of them knew what I was talking about, had to ask them if they had done Naphue Quarter missions and both responded no. I then had to explain to them that they could not go into FoW or UW until they did that mission.

Most don’t want to spend the time to prepare (equipment, extra attributes, ascend, etc…) they just want to jump into the most profitable area and start making gold. I noticed the same thing with CoF, players show up to start running but they don’t have the right equipment, they don’t have the attribute points, they have not practiced with the build ever before, and they immediately want to start spamming, “Running CoF HM 2k murk (bring heals and LoD”

This type of attitude hurts other people and the sad part there is no way to tell if the person that just joined your pug has done the foot worked needed to be in that area.

Yes, people who don't even do most basic preparations are quite a pug-bane.

Bad thing is, it is kinda tolerated. When people ping build, very few notice that, i.e., monk runs 12/11 or even 12/10 or 11/11 spreads because they never bothered to do those super easy quests. (which is incedibly funny because when you do 11/10/10 hybrid you get all the "noob" grief). And if they notice they just don't care, suggesting replacement of such person is greeted with wtf.

Kusandaa · Aug 16, 2008, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Playing in a guild is really no better than playing in a pug, they still fail from time to time even playing with the same people over n over and day after day. I've played in both societies and group types and I've had just as much success in pugs as I've had in the several guilds I tried out. Main thing is you really don't have to join a guild to get in a group of SKILLED players, it's just that the elitism of guild members dictates that ALL puggers suck which they don't and in many cases are actually better players than a lot of guild groups out there.

Failing with friends and failing with random people isn't the same thing in terms of attitude.

A PUG will most likely disband after one or two tries at the same thing. They don't wanna hear things like "setup change" or "less aggro". You can bet people will be angry at whoever caused the party wipe, and will blame someone from the party, usually the monk for "not healing them" or the "Leeroy" warrior... even if they're not even remotely at fault.

If my guild fails at something, we're gonna laugh at it, make fools outta ourselves and go back in again with changes - unless we're short on time or people want to move on to something else. I rarely see us get angry at failing, unless it's taken hours to set up, like The Deep or Urgoz.

The difference of attitude towards failing is what makes a big difference with PUGs.

draxynnic · Aug 16, 2008, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsvictor

People, in general, are pretty stupid and this is exemplified in the Guild Wars pick-up group. There are so many people that I want to strangle cause of the way they play/think/function. Tank n' Spank works for players that understand game mechanics, this is not true for the PUG(since it's quite clear they keep trying the same build that "works", still failing repeatedly(definition of stupid) and not making any changes).

Wasn't expecting different results from doing the same thing the definition of insanity, not stupidity?

Tyla · Aug 16, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

snip

I'll put this short.

Don't judge everything by small encounters.

You may as well call everyone in the world an "asshat" with that attitude, yet there are still people who are kind, willing to help, have skill in what they're doing and give a shit.